Can you know it works if you don’t look inside?

2009 February 21
by John Meunier

The Methoblog is discussing Will Deuel’s BOOM hazing experience.

One of the commenters mentioned some cases he knows.

A friend in Florida has been deferred twice because of having significant student loans, all of them for his M.Div and Ph.D. work. That conference does not want to put him forward for ordination because he owes money for school.

Here was my response when I read this.

Ack! Being in debt is a reason not to be approved by the Board of Ordained Ministry! Do we only want ministry candidates who can pay for their M.Div. with daddy’s trust fund? (If there is some unspoken debt threshold out there, I’d like to know about it.)

Here is what I think the UMC needs. It needs someone to start collecting these stories from all over the country. There needs to be some sort of systematic look at the process. We need data and information.

What we have now are lots of anecdotal stories that float around. For those who see no problem, anecdotal cases can be dismissed on a case-by-case basis. They are unique. Sure, some will say, the process is more byzantine or obscure than it was back when, but it is still working. Besides, I know those people on the BOOM and I don’t want to be seen to be criticizing them.

There is a new interest in many quarters in collecting data. Why not do so here? Some have said that building up a new generation of leaders is a key to the future of the UMC. Oh wait, that was not “some”; it was the General Conference and bishop’s council.

If that is a goal, then why not a real, hard, and clear-eyed look at the process? Not just the process as it appears on PowerPoint slides, but as it actually works in different conferences.

I know there are voices that will say the process is working fine. My response: How do you know? What is your standard for saying that? Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

Can we even articulate in a clear way what the goals of the process are? Can we even describe what a good system of clergy development would do or look like? Do we systematically survey or inquire of new clergy whether they found the process constructive and challenging in a positive sense?

I am willing – eager even – to be shown that the system is working well and doing exactly what the UMC would have it do. But I am doubtful that anyone can show that it is. Rather, we assert claims in the absence of evidence on either side of the question.

How about we recruit a laity committee of people with experience building such systems? Give them a budget and let them spend a year making the most aggressive evaluation of the system they can. Let’s hear what someone with no vested interest in the system has to say about it. And then let’s make the changes that will serve the purposes and needs of the church and the kingdom.

We try to judge the tree with only a vague idea what kind of fruit it is producing. Isn’t that foolish?

9 Responses
  1. 2009 February 21

    John, I think that you propose a rational response to this (perceived) problem. Now, is it even possible to initiate a process of collecting the data without necessitating General Conference authorization? I don’t know. Hopefully, someone else can answer that. We don’t need to wait 8 years to find out and begin making corrections.

  2. 2009 February 21
    John Meunier permalink

    I agree on the time issue.

    For what it is worth, I have wrestling with the same issue as you. I’m part-time local right now, and at age 41 have spent a year wrestling with whether my family can survive ordination.

  3. 2009 February 21
    jackburden permalink

    I say it’s better to ask forgiveness than permission. Indeed, the extreme top-down nature of the UMC bureaucracy is no doubt part of the problem. Real change rarely, if ever, comes from the top-down.

    Go for it.

  4. 2009 February 21
    John Meunier permalink

    Forget our family’s personal issues with financing seminary with two in college; that is ours to figure out.

    I’m wondering WHO possibly will be allowed to be ordained in the years ahead since the AVERAGE undergrad from a PUBLIC university is leaving with debt in the $25K-$35K range before even starting to accumulate debt for seminary.

    (Never mind the young person who went to a private institution – say an historically United Methodist college or university – leaving undergrad with debt at $100K and up even with church-affiliated scholarships, grants and loans!)

    If “debt-free” is the new criteria for ordination, we better hope our current elders can stick around well past traditional ages for retirement. No 21st Century candidates will be able to go before an ordination board and claim to be debt-free. If anyone is, blessed, as John said, with a trust fund, today’s markets are not guaranteeing those candidates much financial assurance either.
    Lisa Meunier on John’s Account

  5. 2009 February 23

    What we have now are lots of anecdotal stories that float around. For those who see no problem, anecdotal cases can be dismissed on a case-by-case basis. They are unique. Sure, some will say, the process is more byzantine or obscure than it was back when, but it is still working. Besides, I know those people on the BOOM and I don’t want to be seen to be criticizing them.

    I would be glad to share precisely what I think of the ordination process. But I doubt that I would be asked.

    Anyway, anything that streamlines the ordination process would necessarily have to dispense with guaranteed appointment. That, or there needs to be a massive revival in the UMC that leads to higher demand for more pastors.

    On paper, the process isn’t completely unsound. It’s just that, as Will and others have found, processes for honing candidates turn into obstacles for hazing because most conferences have a glut of candidates that would over-supply the market for elders if the process was followed faithfully.

    Also: the debt thing? Either the UMC should financially support candidates a whole lot more, or the debt questions shouldn’t be asked. Even on paper the system doesn’t take into account the financial burdens casually tossed onto candidates.

    But hey, I’m just an outsider sticking his nose where it doesn’t belong, so I’ll just back out of the room now….

    • 2009 February 23
      John Meunier permalink

      John, of course, you are always welcome here.

      I’d love to see some numbers on clergy supply vs. pulpit supply. I heard the member of one cabinet say in reply to such a point once that there was not an over supply of candidates. But, I’ve seen no numbers on it either way.

  6. 2009 March 26

    John:

    This is solid writing and insight – and worthy of being reprinted, forwarded, and sent to folks all over. The ordination process is horribly broken, and we lack a theology of ordination.

    The anecdotal stuff does need some factual data to get a balanced and honest picture of things. But given the increasing attention BOM’s all over are attracting from folks who are beginning to speak out, increasing transparency is going to have to emerge if the ordination process is going to keep its integrity. More and more folks are going to go the local pastor route – because people are “wising” up.

    • 2009 April 12
      John Meunier permalink

      Sky, thank you for the comment. I have been not posting during Lent, but appreciate your kind words.

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